CAGC Buildercast Podcast ImageCarolinas AGC is proud to offer its members the Carolinas AGC Buildercast Podcast, a free member benefit. Carolinas AGC will bring members leading industry experts to present on important topics in today’s construction industry landscape. Whether you are at your desk or in the car, Buildercast is a convenient way to stay up to date on the latest trends and information going on in our industry.


Sharon Walters
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Mental Health in Construction: Getting off the Island - Culture, Happiness, Health and Promise

In honor of World Mental Health Day on Tuesday October 10, this series of Buildercast focuses on Mental Health. Carolinas AGC is joining thousands of supporters who come together to bring attention to mental illness and its major effects on people's lives worldwide.  Mental health is a critically important, but often overlooked part of overall workplace safety.  As an industry and Association, we  continue to be focused on making mental health a priority. We encourage each member company to share this podcast and additional mental health resources with their employees and stakeholders.

Caroline Brigmon
Adam Hoots

BuilderCast Guest:  Adam Hoots | Lean Construction Shepherd, Author, Kidney Transplant Survivor, TedX Speaker, Graduate Student and Professor at Clemson University
BuilderCast Episode Host:  Dr. Caroline Brigmon | Director Education, Training, & Workforce
BuilderCast Host/Producer: Sharon Walters | Director of Digital Operations

“Everybody Matters. Share Kindness. We haven’t been taught to do that in our industry. We’ve been conditioned to be stone-faced… We all have something going on from a mental health perspective.”
-Adam Hoots

By now, we are all too aware of the reasons why those working in the construction industry are more likely to struggle with mental health issues. The pressures of feeling isolated, being “on an island”, as Adam Hoots discusses in this podcast, create significant mental and physical stress. The high-stress environment, coupled with job sites that may pose hazardous conditions and the physical demands placed on our workers, all contribute to this growing problem. Moreover, the traditional construction culture often encourages workers to "tough it out" or "leave your feelings at the gate," exacerbating the issue.

Adam Hoots finds power in vulnerability by sharing his personal story and connecting with his team on a relatable level. He firmly believes that listening to and inquiring about the well-being of our colleagues fosters the trust that can truly impact how they perceive their work and, consequently, can make  a real difference in our industry. To promote the welfare of both our industry and the individuals within it, we must actively work to transform our culture. We must nurture our teams by engaging in active listening, asking questions, expressing gratitude, and empowering them to harness their individual strengths and passions. By doing so, we can work more efficiently, boost the happiness and well-being of our teams, and also attract the much-needed interest from younger generations and those who may not be aware of the promising and fulfilling careers our construction industry has to offer.

Prefer Video? Watch the podcast being created!

Past Podcast Series


Produced: May 4, 2020
Guest Speaker: Dr. Rebecca Battle-Bryant, Ph.D., SHRM-CP, President and Owner, Battle Plan Consulting, LLC
Interviewed by: Tammy Ford, Director, Carolinas AGC Foundation’s “Build Your Career” workforce development initiative


Produced: April 27, 2020

Guest Speaker: Jacob Garmon, Sales Executive for Suppliers and Sponsorships and Chelsea Andujar, Director, Meetings & Events
Interviewed by: Sharon Walters, Director, Digital Strategy & Operations


Produced: April 20, 2020
Guest Speaker: Casey Schwager, Region Manager, Sloan Construction Company
Interviewed by: Leslie Clark, Vice President of Operations, SC Government Relations & Divisions, Carolinas AGC


Produced: April 13, 2020
Guest Speaker: Sonya Conner, VP, RN, BSN, CPHRM, McGriff Insurance Services
Interviewed by: Bill Stricker, CAGC Diector Utility Division & NCCER Administration


Produced: April 6, 2020
Guest Speaker: Charlie Wilson, President & CEO, C.T. Wilson Construction Company, Durham, NC
Interviewed by: Betsy Bailey, CAGC NC Government Relations & Building Division Director


Produced: March 30, 2020
Guest Speaker: Dawn Klug, MS/LCMHC/CEAP, Chief Operating Officer/President, Employee Assistance Network , Asheville, NC
Interviewed by: Betsy Bailey, CAGC NC Government Relations & Building Division Director


Produced: March 24, 2020
Guest Speaker: Tamera Edwards, VP Human Resources, MB Haynes Corporation & Chair of the CAGC Human Resources Committee
Interviewed by: Betsy Bailey, CAGC NC Government Relations & Building Division Director

Buildercast Series II: Diversity and Inclusion

Sponsored by:
Merit EHS


Produced: July 20, 2020
Guest Speaker:
Brynn Huneke, Director, Diversity & Inclusion, Member Engagement at AGC of America
BuilderCast Series Host:
Betsy Bailey, Director of Government Relations, NC
BuilderCast Co-Host and Producer:
Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations

How does someone from a town of 750 people in Minnesota end up working on a Diversity & Inclusion Initiative in Washington DC for a National Construction Trade Association? 

Brynn Huneke moved to DC to pursue a career in politics and began working at AGC in the Government Affairs department. Then, she had an experience on the Metro. Listen to her story, and hear an honest reflection on how she started to question her own biases, educate herself, and then choose a career path to do something about it. 

As Brynn was getting certified in the field of Diversity & Inclusion Management, AGC of America was developing it’s Diversity & Inclusion program and she was a perfect fit for the role. That was 4 years ago and this past March, AGC of America launched it’s Culture of CARE campaign. This initiative began at the chapter level with AGC of Washington. AGC of America was already doing some work on Diversity & Inclusion and teamed up with the Washington State Chapter to create a national campaign. The Culture of CARE campaign asks construction companies to take a pledge to build diverse and inclusive workplaces. Making our workplaces more welcoming and inclusive is good business ethics, good for sustainability and profitability, but additionally attracts talent when workforce shortages demand we bring new individuals into our industry.   

Working through these topics and efforts can be difficult and quite different for companies depending on size and resources available. Brynn notes that AGC of America knows this campaign cannot be stagnant and continues to add tools and training to the Culture of CARE website as an ongoing effort.

“We felt like Culture of CARE had a really unique position to be able to talk about that mental and emotional well-being that comes with caring, truly caring about your employees in the middle of a pandemic and how you support them as individuals whose lives have been up-ended.” 
 --Brynn Huneke on how Culture of CARE can help support individuals and companies dealing with new realities.


Produced: July 13, 2020
Guest Speaker:
Edison Cassels, President & CEO, Edison Foard and Incoming Chair of the City Business Inclusion Advisory Committee (CBIAC)
BuilderCast Series Host:
Betsy Bailey, Director of Government Relations, NC
BuilderCast Co-Host and Producer:
Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations

“These are truly unprecedented times… My approach is always just to address something head on. There’s very few conversations I am not willing to have very directly and openly. It’s important that we truly be considerate and consider how co-workers, associates, trade partners, our families are all digesting what’s happening in our world. It’s an uncertain and changing place which can be a little scary, but can also be good.”
Edison Cassels

In this week’s Buildercast, Betsy talks with Edison about communicating to create a more inclusive team environment and how he uncovered blind spots that may not otherwise have been discovered without the need for changes created by COVID-19. New communication strategies that involve all employees at every level have created a feeling of a level playing field, consistency and transparency. Edison is also spending more time really thinking about who is receiving the message and then how best to communicate it.

As a passionate advocate and leader in the community and incoming chair of the City Business Inclusion Advisory Committee, Edison is aware of the impact of COVID-19 on our Minority Businesses. Business have reported struggling during this crisis due to a slow-down of work, lack of financial support and access to assistance. He discusses possible avenues of support during crisis such as short term loans, financial support and access, government entities, private businesses and organizations could act as advocates with the process of getting through crisis. Additionally, continuing education is critical and could be funded by public-private partnerships.

And finally, Edison brings such honesty and thoughtfulness to the conversation about diversity and inclusion as a strategic cornerstone of their business. They are working very hard on this goal and strongly believe that leaders of organizations must set the tone through words and actions and really believe in the mission and beneficial outcomes. As the CEO of Edison Foard, he shares how he has promoted these efforts within his company and how we might all affect real change through our own commitments to these efforts of succeeding together.

Produced: July 6, 2020
Guest Speaker:
Patrice Gilmore, National Supplier Diversity Lead for DPR Construction and President of United Minority Contractors of North Carolina
BuilderCast Series Host:
Betsy Bailey, Director of Government Relations, NC
BuilderCast Co-Host and Producer:
Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations

Betsy talks to Patrice about her early fascination with all things "building" as a young girl, her parents confusion (and some concern) with her interest in this field, and discovering the Construction Management education path while attending North Carolina A & T University. 

Patrice discusses what connections and relationships can do to grow and strengthen minority-owned businesses. She talks about the importance of establishing those relationships now to prepare businesses to respond to crisis like COVID-19 in the future. 

Finally, we asked her advice on what our organizations can do to be a positive influence on diversity and inclusion in the industry. She discusses the opportunities for our organizations and member companies to work together in mentoring relationships- strengthening their firms, as well as the industry. 

Patrice on "the why" to implement diversity and inclusion in your firm - "Do it because you really want to do it for the right reasons, that you want to make investments in people, and help them be better and do better. That's a good reason why."  



Produced: June 21, 2020
Guest Speaker:
Johnny Ortiz, Regional Vendor Diversity Manager, Skanska USA
BuilderCast Series Host:
Betsy Bailey, Director of Government Relations, NC
BuilderCast Co-Host and Producer:
Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations

Johnny's path to construction included early hands-on experience in the industry, and parents that encouraged education as well as construction as a career. Their advice to him was that a being skilled in a trade provides security, a sense of honor and also great earning potential. After struggling as a young man, Johnny pursued and graduated with his GED, went to trade school and earned HVAC-R certification. He then gained more experience working with a small family-owned business and was a part of the firm for 10 years. Working with that family and their firm influenced Johnny and is something that informs and drives him while he works on behalf of small, women & minority firms working on Skanska projects.

In this podcast, we dive into the challenges faced by our Hispanic workforce and staying safe and healthy during COVID-19. With the pandemic disproportionately affecting this community, how can companies create a space that is inclusive and free from fear so that we can better listen, AND get safety messages out more effectively? Additionally, How can we partner with community groups where trust is already established to help protect these communities?

Finally, we discuss the work that is ongoing to create a more diverse and sustainable industry. Programs to get the message about construction careers to our youth are more important now than ever and we must continue working and find new ways to get to parents and teachers to promoting construction the way that Johnny's parents did for him.



Produced: June 16, 2020
Guest Speaker:
Lasenta Lewis-Ellis, GC, CM, CQM-C, MAHRD, is the President/CEO of LLE Construction Group, LLC.
BuilderCast Series Host:
Betsy Bailey, Director of Government Relations, NC
BuilderCast Co-Host and Producer:
Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations

Inspired by our Member Talk panelists from June 5th, we asked each individual to join us separately to continue this important conversation around how we can work to ensure inclusive workplaces and improve communications and safety strategies- especially during COVID-19.

Lasenta Lewis-Ellis, President/CEO of LLE Construction Group opened the series with a fantastic interview - and what a pleasure to speak with her again to get more insight from someone that pushed herself to pursue this career and gives back regularly to our industry.

Listen now to hear Lasenta talk more about what diversity and inclusion really means, how to reach out to disproportionately affected minority communities to better communicate safety messages, and how she is mentoring the new generation of women to pursue careers in construction.

Buildercast Series III: Women in Construction Week - We Were Built for This

For our finale episode of the Women in Construction series, we asked Carolinas AGC staff members to pick their favorite moments from our extraordinary guests interviewed during our “We Were Built for This” and “Diversity and Inclusion” series of  our Buildercast podcast.
In order of appearance:  


  • Pat Rodgers, Rodgers - We Were Built For This, Episode 3, Part I & II
  • Patrice Gilmore - Diversity & Inclusion, DPR Construction - Episode 3
  • Lasenta Lewis-Ellis, LLE Construction Group, LLC - Diversity & Inclusion, Episode 1 
  • Susie Lewis, Beam Construction - We Were Built For This, Episode 2
  • Nish Evans, Lennox and Grae Construction, Inc & Charlie Wilson, C. T. Wilson Construction Company, Inc. - We Were Built For This, Episode 4
  • Nora Spencer, Hope Renovations - We Were Built For This, Episode 1
Throughout these episodes, words like opportunity, creativity, hard work, passion, drive, tenacity, conviction and integrity are staples. You’ll also hear about receiving help from others in the community, appreciating some of the good luck that led to successful careers, and the importance of giving back and telling more young people about the vast opportunities in our industry. With leaders like this, our industry has a bright future.

We sure hope you enjoy this mash up of “best of” moments much as we did!


Guest Speaker: Nish Evans, President & CEO Lennox and Grae Construction, Inc.
Guest Speaker: Charlie Wilson, President C. T.  Wilson Construction Company, Inc.
BuilderCast Host: Betsy Bailey, NC Government Relations & Building Div. Director
BuilderCast Co-Host and Producer: Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations

Nish Evans had spent 12 years in corporate finance roles when  she decided she wanted to build a legacy for herself. After some self-reflection and research, she found the construction industry and she went after a career. She tells us about that journey, the construction industry advisors that were critical to her success, and what we can do now to attract more women into the industry.

Nish Evans"Something I often share with youth as well is that it's not just what we tend to think of in terms of laboring or some of those different roles... There's project management and estimating. This is all about if you can solve problems and you are attracted to that - this is one of the best industries to be in."
-- Nish Evans, Lennox and Grae Construction, Inc.
Charlie Wilson got a call about someone that eagerly wanted to get into the industry. He was blown away by her determination and drive to get started. C. T. Wilson believes that bringing in  smart people is beneficial for the whole industry and wanted to be a part of that journey. Charlie tells us what he learned while Nish was with the team and how we can continue to encourage those with vision to pursue a career in construction.

Charlie Wilson"We need more people of all types in this industry....Broaden your horizons and look beyond just the degree and experience and really look at the person. Is this person driven and care about what they want to do? In the end I think somebody who wants to work hard to learn is more valuable then someone who maybe halfway learned it before and thinks they are done."

-- Charlie Wilson, C. T. Wilson Construction Company, Inc.
Guest Speaker: Pat Rodgers, Rodgers
BuilderCast Series Host: Betsy Bailey, Government Relations Director 
Co-Host and Producer: Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations

Pat Rodgers"The key is that I never underestimated myself. I knew I had a lot to learn, was anxious to learn as much as I could and I just didn’t dwell on it. You know, If you dwell on possibly being underestimated, you won’t have enough energy to do what you need to do to be successful.”

“One of my favorite quotes is from Nelson Mandela. “A winner is a dreamer who never gives up.” So never give up if your doing something you're are passionate about.”

Pat Rodgers, President & CEO, Rodgers Charlotte, NC

In Part 2 of this episode, Pat Rodgers discusses how proud she feels being a part of such important projects in our communities. She also focuses on the importance of giving back, her experiences and opportunities available to women in the industry. Most importantly, we discussed having a passion for this industry and running your own business in general. Having passion and never giving up are keys to success. 

We want to thank Pat for her time, her willingness to share her story, her thoughtful advice and outlook, and certainly her dedication and generosity to this industry.

In this series of Buildercast we are excited to celebrate the success of women in Construction and get to know some of the many female leaders in the industry who are positive drivers of change, and powerhouses in the industry. We discuss the journey of women in this field as well as the inherent qualities and characteristics of women that make us perfectly suited to this rewarding career.

Guest Speaker: Pat Rodgers, Rodgers
BuilderCast Series Host: Betsy Bailey, Government Relations Director 
Co-Host and Producer: Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations

Pat Rodgers"Running a business is not for the faint of heart. And you do have to have that passion for it you have to really care about it. Years ago I read a book by Paul Hawkin (Smith & Hawkin) wrote...and one of the things I remember reading that book... is that if the only reason you go into business is to make money, then you probably won't".

"...So I think you have to care passionately about what you do and you have to give back. It's really important to all of us at Rodgers to give back whether our time, talents or financial support, that we give back to our industry and our communities where our people live and work."

Pat Rodgers, President & CEO, Rodgers Charlotte, NC

Pat Rodgers never thought she would land in the construction industry. She found a two-day part time commitment when she moved to Charlotte and needed a job. That job was with Rodgers Builders. She was asked to stay on and help with some other positions and she decided she would. Over the years, she was offered, and took advantage of every opportunity to grow and learn the business.

Pat discusses the wide open opportunities our industry offers to anyone willing to work hard, and learn the business. She also identifies technology as one reason our industry can and is attracting more young people. 

She closes part one of this two part episode by talking about how important it is for business to give back to the community. Rodgers really has a passion for building beautiful facilities. In fact, their tagline is "Building is our Passion." In this interview, you learn that they are just as passionate about giving back and they show it. 


Guest Speaker: Susie Lewis, Beam Construction
BuilderCast Series Host: Betsy Bailey, Government Relations Director 
Co-Host and Producer: Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations


Susie Lewis"You know, one of the things that I still get charged up about and love about construction is that there is a great sense of pride in driving down the road and being able to point to a building that you were a part of building -whether I personally had any involvement or not, but that Beam Construction built that."

Susie Lewis, President of Beam Construction, Cherryville, NC

Susie Lewis personifies a life in construction. Her Dad, Tom Brown, owned Beam Construction and there were 6 children in the family. In their house, there was no discrimination - boys and girls all helped with projects around the house. They also all gained much exposure to construction during family vacation stops to check on jobsites. Susie interest in how things were built, led her to pursue an engineering degree and first job out of college before taking over operations at Beam Construction in 1994. Susie has continued to build on her success through education and experience. 

We talked with her about being in the industry and a multi-generational family business. We also get her outlook on the vast opportunities for women in construction, and thoughts about the natural instincts and talents women have that are so well suited for this industry.


Guest Speaker: Nora Spencer, Hope Renovations
BuilderCast Series Host: Tammy Ford, Director of Build Your Career Initiative BuilderCast
Co-Host and Producer: Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations

Nora Spencer“Women are good at details, they are tenacious, they don’t give up. They are curious learners and love to learn. Women show up. We have a different way of looking at work a lot of times and I think that is really appreciated and needed in the industry.”

"...You’re coming into an industry where there is not a cultural expectation that women are not worth as much, so as women are coming into the industry, they are getting paid as much as their male counterparts and that is specific to construction industry. You don’t find that in any other industry.” 

Nora Spencer, Hope Renovations on the qualities women possess that bring so much value to this industry and the unique earning potential specific to construction.

While working in HR at Lowe’s, Nora was exposed to and became interested in construction trades and began doing some of her own remodeling jobs on her own. During that time, she noticed (to her dismay) that there were not many women working in the field. After a change in career goals and some training and experience in social work, she decided she wanted to bring about social change in the lives of women through construction trade training. She knew that the trades offer opportunities to lift people out of poverty and provide sustainable, rewarding careers and in 2020 she founded Hope Renovations.

In this episode she helps us dig into the history of women in construction, the traits and characteristics inherent in women that lend so much value to the industry and what the industry has to offer women and has offered women throughout the first year of the Hope Renovations program.

Buildercast Series IV: Drones for Construction

In this series of Buildercast, we turn our focus to Drones. We wanted to know about more than the cool stuff; we asked the expert, our friend Dr. Joe Burgett from Clemson University about the real-life applications and where and how Drones solve problems on our jobsites, how they create efficiencies and even advantages for Contractors that use them. Get the practical answers and learn more about what it takes to get started, and why you should be thinking about it.


Episode 4, Season 4

Drones for Construction: Photogrammetry, Mapping & Modeling

Series Guest Speaker: Joe Priestner, PE, PLS. Emerging Technology Manager at Duncan-Parnell Inc.
BuilderCast Host and Producer:
Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations
BuilderCast Guest Co-Host:
Dr. Joseph M. Burgett, PhD, Associate Professor at Clemson University; Applied Drone Technology Instructor
BuilderCast Series Co-Host:
Bill Stricker, Director Utility Division & NCCER Administration

LiDAR is a ranging or detection technology that uses light to measure distance to a surface or an object. In the mid-1990's the first laser scanner was developed. This technology was stable and stationary and very large in size. Over time, the technology progressed and became smaller and more mobile and eventually became small enough to mount to a drone.

"As soon as they got this technology on a drone, construction was interested."
--Joe Priestner, PE,  PLS, Duncan-Parnell, Inc.

In BuilderCast's 4th episode in the Drone series we find out about the origins of LiDAR technology, and it's use on drones to measure and create terrain models.  The advantage of LiDAR lies mainly in mapping/modeling through vegetation, so we also asked about levels of accuracy and for clarification on the differences between photogrammetry models and LiDAR-generated models.

Finally, we asked for recommendations on the technology implementation models contractors should consider, how much it might cost, and how to get started using LiDAR technology for construction projects.


Episode 3, Season 4

Drones for Construction: Photogrammetry, Mapping & Modeling

Series Guest Speaker: Dr. Joseph M. Burgett, PhD, Associate Professor at Clemson University; Teaches the 5 Week Drone Course for Contractors and Surveyors  
BuilderCast Host and Producer: Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations
BuilderCast Series Co-Host: Bill Stricker, Director Utility Division & NCCER Administration

In Episode 3 of our Drones for Construction series, BuilderCast hosts Dr. Joe Burgett to talk Photogrammetry and creating 3D models using a drone. In this quick 20-minute talk, we asked Joe to briefly explain the technology behind using photos to create models and discuss the level of accuracy of those models. We also wanted to know how this technology is being used in construction, the benefits for contractors and owners, and finally the how and how much to get a program started.

"We're seeing Contractors create 3D models of their site every week and by the way, doesn't take long to do. You know, maybe a 20 minute flight, and another 20 minutes of processing, and you have a 3D digital twin of your site and that's a great tool you can give your clients as close out documents."
--Dr. Joe Burgett, Clemson University
Find out more about Clemson's Drone Education Program at

View all episodes of this series and others.



Episode 2, Season 4

Drones for Construction: Infrared or Thermal Imaging

Series Guest Speaker: 
Dr. Joseph M. Burgett, PhD, Associate Professor at Clemson University; Teaches the 5 Week Drone Course for Contractors and Surveyors  
BuilderCast Host and Producer: 
Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations
BuilderCast Series Co-Host: 
Bill Stricker, Director Utility Division & NCCER Administration

Episode 2 in our Drones for Construction Series is all about Infrared or Thermal Imaging.

This technology provides contractors with safe, instant quality control using Drones with a thermal camera. UAVs can fly over very large areas of buildings, highways or utility construction projects. Additionally, companies can send drones into hard to reach or hazardous locations and keep our workforce safe.

Dr. Joe Burgett with Clemson University joined us again to explain how infrared is used to detect heat so that construction professionals can remotely inspect very quickly for leaks. Find out different types of Infrared platforms - advantages, limitations and when to use each.

We also hear from Joe about how this tool can solving problems for both horizonal and vertical construction projects.

Finally, as always, we ask about what to look for in the necessary equipment, the costs and return on investment with use of this technology. 

Episode 1, Season 4

Drones for Construction: The Basics & Benefits You Need to Know

Series Guest Speaker: Dr. Joseph M. Burgett, PhD, Associate Professor at Clemson University; Teaches the 5 Week Drone Course for Contractors and Surveyors  
BuilderCast Host and Producer: Sharon Walters, Director of Digital Operations
BuilderCast Series Co-Host: Bill Stricker, Director Utility Division & NCCER Administration

Drones have been used commercially since 2016, when the FAA introduced Part 107 Federal Regulatory guidelines. Since then, the industry and use cases for drones in construction has grown significantly. Drones are far more than just a cool technology for our industry techies to play around with, they offer relatively low cost, and high yield, practical applications that accomplish tasks such as record keeping, marketing material, jobsite security. They additionally make it possible to keep our workforce out of high risk areas and can provide a company competitive advantages in producing models through photogrammetry and mapping.

In this first episode of the series, we asked our friend Dr. Joe Burgett from Clemson University to give us information on the basics of why, how, when and how much to get started with Drones. Joe teaches a 5 Week Drone Course for Contractors and Surveyors and has a background as a licensed General Contractor.

Joe Burgett
Drones are a surprisingly simple tool for contractors to improve communication, provide a better product to their clients and increase the bottom line.

Dr. Joe Burgett, Clemson University

We enjoyed learning about the equipment, including types and costs, the steps to obtaining a license, training opportunities, the practical applications of drones as a flying camera for recording progression of work, providing internal marketing material and client quality control and transparency and even security of the jobsite. In the next episodes, we'll find out more about advanced uses including Photogrammetry, overlay of images and mapping and LIDAR. 

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